Surprised By Stuff Coming Out Of ‘Christianity’- Fornication Is Not Pre-Marital Sex?

I keep getting surprised by discovering stuff coming out of ‘christianity.’ A conversation over the past week discussed pre-marital sex as supposedly not a Biblical sin, fornication (sexual immorality) being other than pre-marital sex. (I’m not sure what was in mind.)

Here’s the troubling conversation, providing insight into some thinking. . All italicized content is ‘pro pre-marital sex’ commentor’s remarks.

“Depending on the type, guilt tripping people for premarital sex is wrong.”

Depending on the type, guilt tripping people for premarital sex is wrong.

Premarital sex with a woman is always considered a Christian sin, but it’s not a biblical one.But not all premarital sex is equal. There are so many different types.Leviticus 18 is a good set of instructions on which types are sin.There are several examples of premarital sex in the Bible. Some are sin and some are not.

Which ones aren’t?

It would be easier to share the ones that are sin;Prostitution, adultery, bestiality, homosexuality, rape, sex with close family/relatives, sex with a woman who leaves a marriage without biblical grounds, casual sex with random partners.

Daryl Giffin The term fornicators, used numerous times in the N.T.can be understood to refer to sexual immorality in general, including pre-marital sex. The context it is used in clearly includes sexual immorality in general. Altho’ the Greek word base porneia # 4202 from which we get pornography, and #4205 ‘to sell off’ as in male prostitution, are used where fornication is translated in the KJV, many translations use sexual immorality. So I’d have to disagree with you saying, that premarital sex is not a Biblical sin. Fornication in the N.T. would be understood to include premarital sex, generally translated sexual immorality. The many references to sexual immorality, using either porneia (4202) or pornos (4205) in their context will bear this out.

Fornicator: #4205 pórnos (from pernaō, “to sell off”) – properly, a male prostitute.-in the NT, any fornicator” (Abbott-Smith); i.e. anyone engaging in sexual immorality.

Fornication: #4202-porneia:(the root of the English terms “pornography, pornographic”; properly, a selling off surrendering) of sexual purity; promiscuity of any (every) type.of illicit sexual intercourse in general

The definitions above came from Strong’s in Bible Hub https://biblehub.com/greek/4202.htm

It’s sexual immorality according to the Bible standards, not the catholic/Christian standards.The key word being, immorality. Fornication in NT Greek strongs concordance (4202)There are 2 definitions and each definition has an, A,B,C which is directly pertaining to the definition. Nothing else should be added or culturally appropriated into it.Here’s how it reads:1. Illicit sexual intercourse. A. Adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. B. Sexual intercourse with close relatives; Leviticus 18.C. Sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mark 10:11-122. Metaphorically. The worship of idols A. Of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred from eating the sacrifices offered to idols.

“Flee from sexual immorality/fornication. Every other sin a man can commit is outside his body, but he who sins sexually (fornication) sins against his own body.” 1 Cor.6:18

“But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, (# 4202 porneuo fornication); a man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.”1 Cor 7:2

Remember – Italicized is pro pre-marital sex commentor

These passages are interesting: God only stopped Abimelech because he was about to commit adultery. (Genesis 20:1-62) “And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.- Abraham & Sarah tricks king, Abimelech saying, Sarah is his sister.- Abimelech takes her with the intention of having sex with her.3. But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man’s wife.- God appears to Abimelech in a dream saying, you’re a dead man because you have another man’s wife.4. But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?5. Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.- Abimelech replies saying, In the integrity of my heart have I done this.6. And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.- God replies, yes you have integrity in in your heart, which is why I stopped you from committing adultery.”

(Genesis 38:1-10) “And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.”- What? Onan was ordered to have sex before marriage?9. “And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.”- Onan had sex before marriage and it’s not considered sin?10. “And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.”- what thing? He spilled it on the ground; not sex before marriage.

Daryl Giffin Sadly, you’re taking Old Test. Jewish customs of family heritage practices, Old Test. standards, blurring the fact that Abraham and Sarah were not directly related, that Jewish customs of the time cannot be equated to New Test. principles. There’s a lot of muddied attempts to discount God’s perspective on fornication, yes even in the Old Test., as Deut. 22:13-21 spells it out as worthy of stoning.

The New Test. makes it abundantly clear, what God’s perspective is on fornication, sexual immorality. Here is the honest truth. The New Test. Biblical standard, fornication, in part, pre-marital sex, is a sin. 

When I first discovered that sex before marriage was a Christian sin, but not a biblical one, I was totally shocked. I had a good Christian friend who would sleep with his gf every night and I was appalled that he claimed to know the Lord. I searched the scriptures trying to prove my friend wrong. But I didn’t find anything (in proper context) that showed it was a sin. Anyone can read 1 cor 6:9 and say, “fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God.” But with only having an assumption of what the word fornication means according to Biblical definitions (not using worldly dictionaries), there is no way to assume sex before marriage is in fact fornication/sexual immorality. Remember, at the time the New Testament was being written, there was no New Testament.The only doctrine available at that time was the Torah. If you dismiss the Torah, there is no foundation for any doctrine. If you want to believe fornication is sex before marriage, that’s your choice. It’s tradition or it’s truth it’s your choice. ____________________________________________________________

They seem to be saying that the definition and understanding of fornication had to come from the Old Test, all doctrine came from Torah. I explain that the New Test. Church were developing New Test. doctrine. ____________________________________________________________

​Daryl Giffin  I gave extensive Biblical definitions of fornication, most Bible commentaries will agree with.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_corinthians/6-18.htm

Most Bible translations express fornication as sexual immorality. Jesus spoke of it that way. The Jerusalem council in Acts 15:19-20 gave it as one of the things to the Gentile church to avoid. 

The words of Jesus and of the apostles, – the apostle’s doctrine (Acts 2:42), guided the Church.

Your disagreement is with the majority of Bible translations, scholarly Bible commentators, and with Scripture. Yes, even with the Torah. Praying you reconsider!

Laws Concerning Sexual Immorality

Deut. 22:13-21
13 “If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then hates her 14 and accuses her of misconduct and brings a bad name upon her, saying, ‘I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her evidence of virginity…’ 20 But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, 21 then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father’s house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.”  

It’s spelled right out here!
Deut. 22:21 Whore: zanah: to commit fornication, be a harlot

I know this is a sensitive subject. just because it’s not a sin, doesn’t mean it’s holy, or a good thing for everyone (All things are lawful but not all things are expedient).Simarly with drinking alchohol; God encourages people to drink. yet some shouldn’t drink if they have/had a drinking problem.Deuteronomy 14:23-2726. And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Some pretty distorted theology there. We’re pretty much dependent on the New Test. for New Test truth being our standard.Very egregious to see sexual immorality justifies by Old Test. applications. It’s a salvation issue! “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral/fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.” 1 Cor. 6:9-10

During the time of the New Testament, there was no New Testament written.The only scripture considered doctrine was the Torah (instruction of God found in the first 5 books of the Bible).The only way to understand what sexual immorality, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers is, is from the definitions given in Torah.Everything in the New Testament is a revealing of the Torah, lived out through the life of Christ and His disciples.If you hold only to the new testament text, you’ve strayed from the scriptures and you have a 100% chance of misinterpreting it.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Mat. 5:28 Jesus clearly expressed a new standard. You are in error, trying to define sexual sin from the Torah. But as I said, even Deut. 22:13-21 reveals fornication as sin worthy of death. The New Test. Church was clearly instructed on sexual sins. Beyond this tho,’ you say fornication is not sin, yet, the New Test. is full of admonitions, warnings against sexual immorality, and as I said, it’s a salvation issue. This is serious. “The sexually immoral/ fornicators…will not inherit the kingdom of God.” 1 Cor. 6:10 The Jerusalem council est. “that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality/ fornication, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood.” Acts 15: 19-20

Seems I’ve stirred a hornets nest.There’s a strange philosophy within the church, saying;1. Fornication, & sexual immorality = sex before marriage.The scriptures are clear, and the definitions are clear; that is not what it means.2. Proof texts (single verses) are glorified over contexts:-

Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard it said by them of old time, thou shalt not commit adultery:”(notice of the colon at the end of the verse. That means the next verse is directly connected to it).Verse 28 “But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”(The word lust means desire/covet) The “her” is the married woman. If we only read the proof text without the context, Jesus is saying every man who desires a woman in his heart has committed adultery. Clearly this is in error to the whole Bible.-

1 Corinthians 7:1-2 1 “ Now concerning the things whereof you write unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.” (There’s that colon again)There was something the Corinthian church wrote to Paul regarding biblical sexual immorality. Unfortunately, we today, do not have that document; It’s been lost throughout time. We do know throughout the letter & historical documents, the Corinthian church was committing sexual immorality.Verse 2: “nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. ”When using the Strongs concordance it’s important not to add anything into the definitions. They are clear and concise. Notice, for the word fornication there are two types. Underneath type 1. (Illicit sexual intercourse), there is an A, B, and C. This is the full understanding of type one. Fornication- Strongs 4202 (porneia)1. Illicit sexual intercourse. A. Adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. B. Sexual intercourse with close relatives (Leviticus 18) C. Sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mark 10:11-12.

It’s sexual immorality according to the Bible standards, not the catholic/Christian standards.The key word being, immorality. Fornication in NT Greek strongs concordance (4202)There are 2 definitions and each definition has an, A,B,C which is directly pertaining to the definition. Nothing else should be added or culturally appropriated into it.Here’s how it reads:1. Illicit sexual intercourse. A. Adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. B. Sexual intercourse with close relatives; Leviticus 18.C. Sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mark 10:11-122. Metaphorically. The worship of idols A. Of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred from eating the sacrifices offered to idols.

They (priests) shall not take a wife who is a harlot or a defiled woman, nor shall they take a woman divorced from her husband; for the priest is holy to his God. Lev 21:7, 13 “The woman he marries must be a virgin.”

Defiled: Strong’s #2491: chalal – a woman sexually dishonoured

Lev 21- specifically for priests of the order of Aaron.Deuteronomy 22 only has 30 verses.Zanah means selling your body for sex (harlot)What about H2491?It’s not that you can’t marry a divorced woman.you can’t marry a divorced woman who treacherously departs from her previous husband.


It also means fornication. The priests were given the ideal position on chastity. Your explanation on Matthew 5:27-28 is twisted, as is much of your justification for pre-marital sex. Most people’s consciences alone tells them sex is for marriage.

So if a single person has sex with a married person, making it adultery, it’s sin, but two single people having sex is not sin. A ridiculous assertation. Your elaborate explanations defy my understanding, as to suggesting pre-marital sex is accepted as holy living.

“For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God” 1 Thess. 4:3-5.

What in the world is sexual immorality, if not sex outside of marriage? Your definition of sexual immorality – fornication, if not pre-marital sex, would be a rather bizarre, restrictive definition, adultery, prostitution, bestiality, or incest.

28 “If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.” Deut. 22:28–29.

Here, pre-marital sex requires a penalty, because it’s sin, violating God’s laws, and marriage is imposed because sex is only lawful with marriage.

“Many other passages in the New Testament confirm what we see in the letters of Paul. Revelation 14:4 assumes that unmarried Christian men who desire to be faithful are not having sex. Matthew 1:18-19 celebrates the chastity of Joseph and Mary. And Hebrews 13:4 considers sex outside of marriage to be immoral: “Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.” This verse can’t just be limited to adultery, since both “sexually immoral” and “adulterous” are listed.”  https://www.prestonsprinkle.com/…/does-the-bible-really.

Noth​ing speaks more clearly than this.

“Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. 19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.” Mat. 1:18-19

Does the Bible Really Prohibit Sex Outside of Marriage? — Preston Sprinkle

PRESTONSPRINKLE.COMDoes the Bible Really Prohibit Sex Outside of Marriage? — Preston Sprinkle

The author is using proof text without context.He references Abraham and his offspring as an example.Read gen 20:1-6- God only stops Abimelech when he’s about to commit adultery, not sex before marriage.He referenced Deuteronomy 22:13 This passage is referring to a man who gets swindled. He payed the dowry of virgins and didn’t get a virgin; fraud.He references 1 cor 7:2.But he fails to read verse 1 which gives the context of the chapter; “now concerning the things you write unto me” it is good for a man not to touch a woman.What did they write to Paul? We don’t know.He uses several verses trying to prove his point, all without context.

Some of your ‘context’ references are pretty conflagrated, elaborate twisting and turning of the plain text away from the clear meaning, ignoring other clear texts.

Noth​ing speaks more clearly than this.

“Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. 19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.” Mat. 1:18-19.

“You should know how to control your own body in holiness and honour.”

Do you in your own conscience really believe having sex with your girlfriend is behaving in holiness and honour? Ask the Lord if He thinks so.

“For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God.” 1 Thess. 4:3-5.

“Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.” Hebrews 13:4

“This verse can’t just be limited to adultery, since both “sexually immoral” and “adulterous” are listed.”

No wonder the church is over run with immorality and it’s not even recognized. The judgment seat of Christ and great white throne judgment will determine the truth.

Principles for Marriage -1 Corinthians 7

I couldn’t help including further, clear Biblical instructions regarding sex and marriage. I know you ‘contextualized’ portions of the following, actually deflecting away from the context by trying to confuse the meaning of fornication again, but I came upon this in my reading this morning, portions of clearly laid out principles and protocol not to be ignored or shuffled to obscurity. 

Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”  But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.  For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.  Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

 Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am.  But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Deflecting away from the obvious intent of the statement here, would be pure deceit, that Paul defended his ministry against. “Instead, we have renounced secret and shameful ways. We do not practice deceit, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by open proclamation of the truth, we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.” 2 Cor. 4:2

If a couple cannot exercise self-control, (abstaining from sex), it is better to marry than burn with sexual passion.

Verses 25-35 would apply to an intimately involved unmarried couple as well as the married, that Paul addresses. There would be the same care and concern, if you’re saying sex is okay for a committed, unmarried couple, but not ‘casual sex.’

Verse 34  “his interests are divided.  (There is difference also between a wife and a virgin.)  And the unmarried or betrothed woman (the unmarried woman and virgin) is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit.” 

Thro’ out Paul’s discourse, there is a continual distinction made between a wife and a virgin, either or. It’s either a wife or a virgin.   

a maiden, a virgin: #3933. parthenos – properly, a virgin; a woman who has never had sexual relations; a female (virgin), beyond puberty but not yet married; (figuratively) believers when they are pure (chaste), i.e. faithful to Christ their heavenly Bridegroom (2 Cor 11:2; Rev 14:4).

Verses 35-38 “If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, (virgin) if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin. But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well.So then he who marries his betrothed does well, and he who refrains from marriage will do even better.” 

The same principle is explained here, if his passions are strong, let them marry.

Biblical Principle Of Chastity


For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.  2 Cor 11:2

Be Joined To His Wife; And They Shall Become One Flesh

Monogamy is the practice or state of being married to only one person at a time. When God instituted the covenant of marriage, He designed the relationship to be monogamous. In Genesis 2:21–22, God created Adam and then formed a woman, Eve, from one of his ribs and brought her to the man. God did not create several women for Adam, which would have been helpful in fulfilling the command to populate the earth (Genesis 1:27–28). Adam responded with the joyful proclamation that Eve was “bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh” (verse 23), followed by this declaration: “For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh” (verse 2:24). Jesus echoed this truth when He was asked about divorce (Matthew 19:5). He then added, “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate” (Matthew 19:6). Eph. 5:31

The “Mystery” Of Marriage 

The “mystery” of marriage (Ephesians 5:31-32). When God spoke of two people being joined as one, He was referring to something we’re only beginning to understand in a real, physiological way. When two people are intimate, the hypothalamus in the brain releases chemicals that induce feelings of attachment and trust. Having sex outside of marriage results in a person forming an attachment and trusting someone with whom he or she does not have a committed relationship. The definition of trust in the mind deteriorates. To have that kind of link with someone without the security of working together toward God is dangerous. Two individuals who are—even mildly—physiologically obsessed with each other but not committed to growing in God as a couple can be torn from God and His plans for them.

Conversely, if two people make a conscious, deliberate choice to commit to each other in marriage, and then allow the intimacy that releases these chemicals, the body can reaffirm the connection the mind has made. The physiological feelings of trust and attachment are reinforced by the reality of the relationship. In this way, two people become one physically, and that reflects what God has done spiritually.

Marriage is to model the relationship between the church and Christ. A married couple is to serve God in a strong, unified partnership. Sex, along with procreation, was designed by God to strengthen that partnership. Sex outside of marriage creates bonds that tear apart people’s hearts instead of joining them together.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-chastity.html

Treat older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.1 Tim. 5:2           

Purity: Strong’s Greek #47: hagneia: Purity, chastity. cleanliness, 

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